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Touring Motor Gliders Association (TMGA)

TMG under IFR


sstratto

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First check the Aircraft Pilot Handbook for requirements or restrictions on IFR flight and required equipment. Then Pilot qualifications, certifications etc of course.

I do not know of any "Glider" category certified aircraft that includes IFR flight in its certification and equipment, however, some aircraft have IFR equipment

just in case they inadvertently get sucked into a cloud or get caught in weather.

An experimental certified "Glider" aircraft may allow it if it is granted in the operating limitations.

From my understanding its not inherently allowed in "Gliders" but is a grey area as some folks may get caught in weather and you would use what ever equipment you have at your disposal to navigate through IFR.

Ray

Edited by rayjb60
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First check the Aircraft Pilot Handbook for requirements or restrictions on IFR flight and required equipment. Then Pilot qualifications, certifications etc of course.

I do not know of any "Glider" category certified aircraft that includes IFR flight in its certification and equipment, however, some aircraft have IFR equipment

just in case they inadvertently get sucked into a cloud or get caught in weather.

An experimental certified "Glider" aircraft may allow it if it is granted in the operating limitations.

From my understanding its not inherently allowed in "Gliders" but is a grey area as some folks may get caught in weather and you would use what ever equipment you have at your disposal to navigate through IFR.

Ray

Edited by rayjb60
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  • 6 months later...

Old thread with no recent activity but I'll offer the following email received from a contact on the Xenos forum approximately one year ago. This is a very comprehensive response to it is lengthy.

"

Dear Sir,

Regarding a Xenos experimental aircraft w/ Spec Aw Cert ExpAmbuilt , having declared it to be a glider aircraft self launching with an experimental powerplant piston engined w/ fixed pitch or ground adjustable propellor and fixed landing gear,

then one may fly IFR in it if one meets certain criteria. Yet is requisite that one get appropriate Operating Limitations made as part of its Special Airworthiness Certificate, and if one becomes appropriately Airman Certificated.

It can be flown IFR if it meets the equipment requirements and that the airman pilot in command meets certain criteria.

At one time one could gain IFR rating at Private Pilot level in a glider, but that was stopped years and years ago.

Now, to become IFR qualified as an Airman one must gain Private Pilot Certificate with Airplane (or Helicopter rotorcraft rating; (usually done as PP SEL,

and a requirement for doing that prior to solo flight is to have a US Third Class Aeromedical Certificate. Then continue ones training until one accomplishes the Instrument Flight Rules qualification addition to ones Airman Certificate.

Thereby one gains IFR privileges in any aircraft one is also be rated in such as Glider:

in your case it would be a rating for Glider PP privileges. To fly your Xenos as a glider you must have a US Airman Certificate with a Glider rating. It may be your only rating if you choose. And you shall be able to fly your Xenos except To fly your Xenos, having declared it be functionally a Glider you must be Glider rated. At least US Private Pilot Certificate w/ Glider rating. AND , know this, Regulations now also require you to get a :Powered Glider endorsement from a CFI-G who has such Powered Glider airman logbook endorsement to fly your Xenos or other powered glider as a powered glider, even if you have an Private Pilot Certificate Single Engine Land rating, with or without Instrument Flight Rules qualification. Again, to get powered glider endorsement, one must have a US Airman Certificate at Private Pilot level and a Glider rating, with or without any other ratings such as Airplane Single Engine Land or IFR qualified

I am quite familiar with all this. I have owned and operated gliders and especially powered Glider and did so before such endorsement for powered glider was required. Mercifully, I am grandfathered in by my powered glider experience. You are not able to be so qualified by pre existing experience unless you were glider rated who flew required hours as pilot in command before a certain date (now quite a few years back).

EAA is good source to clarify this for you.

AOPA is also good source.

Be a member of both.

Consult them as you build your plane and consider its lighting, its equipment. No the equipment does not have to be TSOd and for experimental am built aircraft can be flown IFR if one is qualified and has equivalent equipment that meet the intent of the Administrator (w/ exp ambuilt, thats up to you to discern).

Ones principal barrier to operating ones Xenos in IFR operations is that ordinarily it must be properly equipped and you must be IFR qualified by your airman certifications. Here are a couple references

http://www.ssa.org/sport/gliderpilot.asp re glider certification

http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/tvrvbg/_borders/IFR%20equipment.pdf re equipment

http://members.eaa.org/home/govt/issues/samateur_built_operating.asp

http://home.provide.net/~pratt1/ambuilt/faqhmblt.htm

In operating your Spec Aw Cert Exp Ambuilt w/ reasonable Operating Limitations you with US PP Glider rated Airman Certificate may operate your Glider aircraft (powered or not) up to 18000 Ft without any clearances and without operating under IFR if in appropriate airspace and Visual Conditions VSM . Transponders are not required for a Glider aircraft powered or not. Yet Transponder Mode C would be required if one flies under InstrumentFlightRules whether in VMC or not.

You must sort out your likelyhood of using the aircraft for operations under Instrument Flight Rules. Consider it is unlikely, considering all factors. High altitudes are very very cold. After 13000 ft you will need supplemental oxygen if you plan to spend any time there and above that.

One benefit of having a Private Pilot Certificate with any rating be it Airplane, Glider etc is that when flying exercising sport pilot privileges (if one does so) there are no requirements for endorsements as to airspace operations.

The Sport Pilot Certificate is limiting, and requires a number of endorsements for increasing privileges and it limits the airman to operating below 10000 ft. and is limited to operations Day VFR.

Get a Private Pilot Certificate if one can, rated as one may. Depending on rating sought, varying aeromedical requirements apply. If one seeks PP ASEL privileges and ratings then one must get a third class or better aeromedical certificate.

If one fails aeromedical exam or has had one revoked then that prevents one from exercising sport pilot privileges of an aircraft if it be it be classed as airplane. If such occurs then one must get a special issuance of aeromedical certificate third class in order to operate a light sport compliant airplane. If one has a Glider then this does not apply. There is no aeromedical criteria for operation of a Glider (such as Xenos) except ones own personal assessment of ones condition considering public safety. And if operating a xenos glider and has a PP Cert Glider rated then one needs no aeromedical , needs no drivers lic in lieu of aeromedical certificate.

US PP Certificate w/ Glider rating has no aeromedical requirement. No drivers license required . Previous failure of aeromedical certification does not matter with Glider rating and Glider flight operations. Airman operating a Xenos if PP G rated has no sport pilot limitations. He would be limited mainly by his aircrafts Operating Limitations.

Be careful to get good Operating Limitations when you apply for Special Aw Cert.

Exp Ambuilt for Xenos. It should not be limited to Day VFR operations only if you intend to operate Night VFR or if you intend to operate IFR. It should allow Night VFR, and or IFR if appropriately equipped. Negotiate in advance all the Operating Limitations for your completed aircraft, and get confirmation from your DAR of all the sentences, phrases and commas and periods and sections.

These Operating Limitations are so very very important.

My supposition is that with a Xenos you shall not seek to use it IFR much if any. You size up your needs and abilities and go forth.

Be of good heart. Continue to March.

Dancing on clouds,

Keep it up !"

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Old thread with no recent activity but I'll offer the following email received from a contact on the Xenos forum approximately one year ago. This is a very comprehensive response to it is lengthy.

"

Dear Sir,

Regarding a Xenos experimental aircraft w/ Spec Aw Cert ExpAmbuilt , having declared it to be a glider aircraft self launching with an experimental powerplant piston engined w/ fixed pitch or ground adjustable propellor and fixed landing gear,

then one may fly IFR in it if one meets certain criteria. Yet is requisite that one get appropriate Operating Limitations made as part of its Special Airworthiness Certificate, and if one becomes appropriately Airman Certificated.

It can be flown IFR if it meets the equipment requirements and that the airman pilot in command meets certain criteria.

At one time one could gain IFR rating at Private Pilot level in a glider, but that was stopped years and years ago.

Now, to become IFR qualified as an Airman one must gain Private Pilot Certificate with Airplane (or Helicopter rotorcraft rating; (usually done as PP SEL,

and a requirement for doing that prior to solo flight is to have a US Third Class Aeromedical Certificate. Then continue ones training until one accomplishes the Instrument Flight Rules qualification addition to ones Airman Certificate.

Thereby one gains IFR privileges in any aircraft one is also be rated in such as Glider:

in your case it would be a rating for Glider PP privileges. To fly your Xenos as a glider you must have a US Airman Certificate with a Glider rating. It may be your only rating if you choose. And you shall be able to fly your Xenos except To fly your Xenos, having declared it be functionally a Glider you must be Glider rated. At least US Private Pilot Certificate w/ Glider rating. AND , know this, Regulations now also require you to get a :Powered Glider endorsement from a CFI-G who has such Powered Glider airman logbook endorsement to fly your Xenos or other powered glider as a powered glider, even if you have an Private Pilot Certificate Single Engine Land rating, with or without Instrument Flight Rules qualification. Again, to get powered glider endorsement, one must have a US Airman Certificate at Private Pilot level and a Glider rating, with or without any other ratings such as Airplane Single Engine Land or IFR qualified

I am quite familiar with all this. I have owned and operated gliders and especially powered Glider and did so before such endorsement for powered glider was required. Mercifully, I am grandfathered in by my powered glider experience. You are not able to be so qualified by pre existing experience unless you were glider rated who flew required hours as pilot in command before a certain date (now quite a few years back).

EAA is good source to clarify this for you.

AOPA is also good source.

Be a member of both.

Consult them as you build your plane and consider its lighting, its equipment. No the equipment does not have to be TSOd and for experimental am built aircraft can be flown IFR if one is qualified and has equivalent equipment that meet the intent of the Administrator (w/ exp ambuilt, thats up to you to discern).

Ones principal barrier to operating ones Xenos in IFR operations is that ordinarily it must be properly equipped and you must be IFR qualified by your airman certifications. Here are a couple references

http://www.ssa.org/sport/gliderpilot.asp re glider certification

http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/tvrvbg/_borders/IFR%20equipment.pdf re equipment

http://members.eaa.org/home/govt/issues/samateur_built_operating.asp

http://home.provide.net/~pratt1/ambuilt/faqhmblt.htm

In operating your Spec Aw Cert Exp Ambuilt w/ reasonable Operating Limitations you with US PP Glider rated Airman Certificate may operate your Glider aircraft (powered or not) up to 18000 Ft without any clearances and without operating under IFR if in appropriate airspace and Visual Conditions VSM . Transponders are not required for a Glider aircraft powered or not. Yet Transponder Mode C would be required if one flies under InstrumentFlightRules whether in VMC or not.

You must sort out your likelyhood of using the aircraft for operations under Instrument Flight Rules. Consider it is unlikely, considering all factors. High altitudes are very very cold. After 13000 ft you will need supplemental oxygen if you plan to spend any time there and above that.

One benefit of having a Private Pilot Certificate with any rating be it Airplane, Glider etc is that when flying exercising sport pilot privileges (if one does so) there are no requirements for endorsements as to airspace operations.

The Sport Pilot Certificate is limiting, and requires a number of endorsements for increasing privileges and it limits the airman to operating below 10000 ft. and is limited to operations Day VFR.

Get a Private Pilot Certificate if one can, rated as one may. Depending on rating sought, varying aeromedical requirements apply. If one seeks PP ASEL privileges and ratings then one must get a third class or better aeromedical certificate.

If one fails aeromedical exam or has had one revoked then that prevents one from exercising sport pilot privileges of an aircraft if it be it be classed as airplane. If such occurs then one must get a special issuance of aeromedical certificate third class in order to operate a light sport compliant airplane. If one has a Glider then this does not apply. There is no aeromedical criteria for operation of a Glider (such as Xenos) except ones own personal assessment of ones condition considering public safety. And if operating a xenos glider and has a PP Cert Glider rated then one needs no aeromedical , needs no drivers lic in lieu of aeromedical certificate.

US PP Certificate w/ Glider rating has no aeromedical requirement. No drivers license required . Previous failure of aeromedical certification does not matter with Glider rating and Glider flight operations. Airman operating a Xenos if PP G rated has no sport pilot limitations. He would be limited mainly by his aircrafts Operating Limitations.

Be careful to get good Operating Limitations when you apply for Special Aw Cert.

Exp Ambuilt for Xenos. It should not be limited to Day VFR operations only if you intend to operate Night VFR or if you intend to operate IFR. It should allow Night VFR, and or IFR if appropriately equipped. Negotiate in advance all the Operating Limitations for your completed aircraft, and get confirmation from your DAR of all the sentences, phrases and commas and periods and sections.

These Operating Limitations are so very very important.

My supposition is that with a Xenos you shall not seek to use it IFR much if any. You size up your needs and abilities and go forth.

Be of good heart. Continue to March.

Dancing on clouds,

Keep it up !"

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