Welcome to New Members

[mitchw62]

Hello, I am Mitch Williams from Chickasha, OK. We run a small flight school with C150, PA28, C172, and an Ercoupe. We are looking into adding a Powered Glider as a way to lower the cost of flight, let people fly without an medical, etc. My questions are:

1. I have some time in Ultralights and fat-ULs and other LSA aircraft. Many of the lighter ones are no fun to fly in our normal winds and turbulence especially on hot windy days. Does the High-aspect ratio (really longs) wings cushion the ride? Will this be fun to fly on really hot and/or windy days?

2. How much crosswind can a motorglider handle?

3. With more than 45 Foot wingspan, do most people take the wings off each night like a non-powered glider, or do you leave them on?

4. On a touring mission (cross country), would you rather climb up then shut-down and glide for a longtime, then power back up if needed?, or do us just use a cruise power setting?

5. I was thinking about forming a club, then renting the powered glider by the engine hour. Then a clubber could power-up, climb 20 minutes and fly 8 hours at the cost of .3 hrs. Does anybody do this?

mitch

www.chickashawings.com

[Thermalseeker]

Hello Mitch, welcome to the forum!

I'll try to answer your questions, although opinions, motorgliders and experience vary. So, others might chime in with different answers.

1) How much fun it will be to fly on a hot, windy day depends on the motorglider, particularly the ventilation of the motorglider. Most of the touring motorgliders all have canopies which turn the cockpit into a greenhouse/sauna in rather short order once closed. I fly a Ximango and it has very good ventilation, but it can be a bit oppressive on really hot days, especially if there are no clouds to provide shade. As far as wind is concerned, I've made several cross country trips from Chattanooga to the west coast in my X. Each time I've had to deal with winds of up to 40 knots. I usually try to pick my stops carefully if there is a lot of wind (like the Texas/Oklahoma panhandle areas. Landing in a cross isn't that big a deal in the Ximango. It has big, very effective spoilers, which make landing in big wind a piece of cake. I've landed in conditions that far exceed the demonstrated crosswind component without any problems, but I also towed gliders for a number of years and I'm used to landing a taildragger in pretty rowdy conditions. Taking off is another matter entirely, particularly in a left cross. Mine has winglets and it has a strong tendency to want to turn into the wind when there is a cross. The gyroscopic effect of raising the tail on take off wants to turn it left, too. So, if you add a stiff left cross and the gyroscopic effect of raising the tail on take off and you can run out of rudder pretty quickly. So, it really all boils down to knowing your own limitations.

2) Round numbers, around15 knots is typical, but like GA power aircraft it varies from aircraft to aircraft and pilot to pilot. As I'm sure you are aware there are plenty of pilots who have trouble landing in calm conditions. The Ximango has a 9' gear stance. So, if you're good with your feet you can use differential braking to help keep it straight on asphalt. Not so much on grass, though.

3) The Ximango, as well as other popular motorgliders, wings fold. Takes about 1 minute per side with the Ximango. Once the wings are folded it will fit in any hangar where a C-172 will fit. Other motorglider designs have removable tips which shorten the span allowing them to be stored in a normal T-hangar. With some motorgliders, like the Lambada or the Phoenix, it is possible to remove the wings because the fuselage contains the landing gear, although both have fuel tanks in the wings. On the Ximango the landing gear retracts into the wings. The Ximango wings can be removed similar to a pure glider, (pull the spar pins) but you have to support the fuselage, drain the fuel from the tanks, etc. It can be done, but it isn't easy and along with a good reason to remove the wings you'll need 4-5 strong backs with weak minds to accomplish it.

4) My Ximango cruises at a solid 115 kts. I usually motor along if I'm going somewhere. I have been known to stop while on a cross country when I found a soarable ridge along my route. For incidence, if I pass through Arkansas near Mt. Magazine I'll usually check to see if the ridge is working. If so, and I have time I'll shut down and make a few passes. I like to check Big Walker when I'm in VA and Clinch when I'm in East Tennessee, too. I've encountered mountain wave a few times while on cross country trips. I have a hard time not stopping for 1000 fpm baby-butt smooth lift. I have flown engine off cross countries in excess of 300 miles on numerous occassions, but only for fun.

5) Not that I've seen. Gliders are usually rented by the clock hour. Most motorgliders that are used primarily for soaring will have higher airframe times than engine times. Doesn't seem like it would be cost effective to rent a glider based on a 20 minute ascent when the flight will put 8 hours on the airframe.

Hope it helps!

Regards,

John Lawton

Whitwell, TN (TN89)

Ximango #135

[Thermalseeker]

Hello Mitch, welcome to the forum!

I'll try to answer your questions, although opinions, motorgliders and experience vary. So, others might chime in with different answers.

1) How much fun it will be to fly on a hot, windy day depends on the motorglider, particularly the ventilation of the motorglider. Most of the touring motorgliders all have canopies which turn the cockpit into a greenhouse/sauna in rather short order once closed. I fly a Ximango and it has very good ventilation, but it can be a bit oppressive on really hot days, especially if there are no clouds to provide shade. As far as wind is concerned, I've made several cross country trips from Chattanooga to the west coast in my X. Each time I've had to deal with winds of up to 40 knots. I usually try to pick my stops carefully if there is a lot of wind (like the Texas/Oklahoma panhandle areas. Landing in a cross isn't that big a deal in the Ximango. It has big, very effective spoilers, which make landing in big wind a piece of cake. I've landed in conditions that far exceed the demonstrated crosswind component without any problems, but I also towed gliders for a number of years and I'm used to landing a taildragger in pretty rowdy conditions. Taking off is another matter entirely, particularly in a left cross. Mine has winglets and it has a strong tendency to want to turn into the wind when there is a cross. The gyroscopic effect of raising the tail on take off wants to turn it left, too. So, if you add a stiff left cross and the gyroscopic effect of raising the tail on take off and you can run out of rudder pretty quickly. So, it really all boils down to knowing your own limitations.

2) Round numbers, around15 knots is typical, but like GA power aircraft it varies from aircraft to aircraft and pilot to pilot. As I'm sure you are aware there are plenty of pilots who have trouble landing in calm conditions. The Ximango has a 9' gear stance. So, if you're good with your feet you can use differential braking to help keep it straight on asphalt. Not so much on grass, though.

3) The Ximango, as well as other popular motorgliders, wings fold. Takes about 1 minute per side with the Ximango. Once the wings are folded it will fit in any hangar where a C-172 will fit. Other motorglider designs have removable tips which shorten the span allowing them to be stored in a normal T-hangar. With some motorgliders, like the Lambada or the Phoenix, it is possible to remove the wings because the fuselage contains the landing gear, although both have fuel tanks in the wings. On the Ximango the landing gear retracts into the wings. The Ximango wings can be removed similar to a pure glider, (pull the spar pins) but you have to support the fuselage, drain the fuel from the tanks, etc. It can be done, but it isn't easy and along with a good reason to remove the wings you'll need 4-5 strong backs with weak minds to accomplish it.

4) My Ximango cruises at a solid 115 kts. I usually motor along if I'm going somewhere. I have been known to stop while on a cross country when I found a soarable ridge along my route. For incidence, if I pass through Arkansas near Mt. Magazine I'll usually check to see if the ridge is working. If so, and I have time I'll shut down and make a few passes. I like to check Big Walker when I'm in VA and Clinch when I'm in East Tennessee, too. I've encountered mountain wave a few times while on cross country trips. I have a hard time not stopping for 1000 fpm baby-butt smooth lift. I have flown engine off cross countries in excess of 300 miles on numerous occassions, but only for fun.

5) Not that I've seen. Gliders are usually rented by the clock hour. Most motorgliders that are used primarily for soaring will have higher airframe times than engine times. Doesn't seem like it would be cost effective to rent a glider based on a 20 minute ascent when the flight will put 8 hours on the airframe.

Hope it helps!

Regards,

John Lawton

Whitwell, TN (TN89)

Ximango #135

[mitchw62]

Thanks for the information

[mitchw62]

Thanks for the information

[Thermalseeker]

BTW, you can see how the Ximango wings fold at the link below. Scroll down about halfway and you'll see a sequence of photos that show the process:

http://www.touringmotorgliders.org/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=566

[Thermalseeker]

BTW, you can see how the Ximango wings fold at the link below. Scroll down about halfway and you'll see a sequence of photos that show the process:

http://www.touringmotorgliders.org/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=566

[mtaylor]

Just Joined. I do not have any lic flying ex. however I did belong to an EAA chapter in Az for a long time. I was going to go LSA but I figured with the distance and load cap of the touring motor glider ,I would rather fly this way. A true spirit of flying in my opinion. I have two homes one in Coos Bay Oregon and one in Chino Valley Az. I have emailed sky souring in Payson, Az. to schedule my lessons while I live in Az. during the winter.

[mtaylor]

Just Joined. I do not have any lic flying ex. however I did belong to an EAA chapter in Az for a long time. I was going to go LSA but I figured with the distance and load cap of the touring motor glider ,I would rather fly this way. A true spirit of flying in my opinion. I have two homes one in Coos Bay Oregon and one in Chino Valley Az. I have emailed sky souring in Payson, Az. to schedule my lessons while I live in Az. during the winter.

[mtaylor]

fly to Payson. it is just south east of Sedona and the landing is better Sedona's airport is on a ridge and can get tricky. PRC is on the west side of the mountains and not much further passed Sedona. It is Ernest a love field. Emery riddle college uses PRC allot and it can get crowded.

[mtaylor]

fly to Payson. it is just south east of Sedona and the landing is better Sedona's airport is on a ridge and can get tricky. PRC is on the west side of the mountains and not much further passed Sedona. It is Ernest a love field. Emery riddle college uses PRC allot and it can get crowded.

[mtaylor]

Steve I'm new to the Glider and flying thing myself. I live in Coos Bay Or. I am looking to travel back and forth to Az.,our winter home. We may have a common friend. Col. Goerge Ruddell the 1st. ace in Korea Flying the f4. Mig mad Mayvise. He is my step daughters real grand father. I love just hearing his stories. I am a disabled Veteran myself and him and I get along well. Good luck in your adventure and maybe I will run into you at the Truckee airstrip.

[mtaylor]

Steve I'm new to the Glider and flying thing myself. I live in Coos Bay Or. I am looking to travel back and forth to Az.,our winter home. We may have a common friend. Col. Goerge Ruddell the 1st. ace in Korea Flying the f4. Mig mad Mayvise. He is my step daughters real grand father. I love just hearing his stories. I am a disabled Veteran myself and him and I get along well. Good luck in your adventure and maybe I will run into you at the Truckee airstrip.

[Terry24q]

Don't have a motorglider but am interested. Currently have a Mooney M20F and fortunately have yet to use it as a glider. It is for sale by the way.

Hope to be an active member.

Terry

[Terry24q]

Don't have a motorglider but am interested. Currently have a Mooney M20F and fortunately have yet to use it as a glider. It is for sale by the way.

Hope to be an active member.

Terry

[jonh]

New guy here, Jon from Seattle. I'm hoping this community is still alive (last post August!).

My aviation background is about 80 hrs hang gliding and in an ultralight trike,

~500 hrs ASEL/IFR in C172 & C182, and a rating and few dozen hours in gliders

(I fly gliders with PSSA in Enumclaw, near Mt. Rainier).

My experience with these different aircraft suggest a TMG might be the

plane for me. I like:

- Soaring. I got into the trike after hooking a thermal in the 172. :v)

I've soared the trike, but its performance is so poor that it's

very challenging.

- Flying about one powered XC per year, 1300--4000nm. The 172 can do that

well; 105kts is fine with me. In a TMG, I'd probably stop to soar along the

way to wherever I'm going.

- more flying, less setup.

With the 172, I'm flying ten minutes after I arrive at the airport.

The trike involves hours of packing and assembly, driving to a site, and

the reverse at the end of the day. The gliders at the club still require

assembly, plus it's a social operation: I've still spent a day driving and

helping out at the field to get 30-60 minutes in the air.

- Taking passengers. I can't share the trike with anyone, and the overhead

of the glider club makes it difficult to share gliding: It costs a day to

share a 20 minute flight.

I've heard that TMGs can cruise at Cessna speeds, on less fuel, take a

passenger, and of course they can soar.

Where and how do I start shopping? Here are some criteria I can already guess

will be important. Suggest any considerations I might have missed.

- Price. A decent used 172 runs $40k; I can probably shop in that range.

The new price tags of $150k frighten me.

- Cost of operation. It sounds like a TMG can really save gas.

- Will I end up spending the difference in higher hourly

maintenance reserves on the engine?

- How is insurance?

- Can I tie it down on the ramp like a painted metal plane, or

will I wish I'd rented a hangar? Can I fit a TMG in a hangar?

- Is useful load for XC a constraint? I'm from a big-boned family, so two

of us might represent 450 pounds of meat plus 50-70 pounds of luggage.

No sweat for a 172, but will we fit in a TMG?

How do I even begin shopping for a TMG? Any nearby airport has a 172

with deflated tires and a For Sale sign tied to the prop. Where do I look

for TMGs? How do I decide which models fit my tastes?

Any owners in the Seattle area, I'd love to get together and ... let you

take me for a ride in your TMG. :v)

[jonh]

New guy here, Jon from Seattle. I'm hoping this community is still alive (last post August!).

My aviation background is about 80 hrs hang gliding and in an ultralight trike,

~500 hrs ASEL/IFR in C172 & C182, and a rating and few dozen hours in gliders

(I fly gliders with PSSA in Enumclaw, near Mt. Rainier).

My experience with these different aircraft suggest a TMG might be the

plane for me. I like:

- Soaring. I got into the trike after hooking a thermal in the 172. :v)

I've soared the trike, but its performance is so poor that it's

very challenging.

- Flying about one powered XC per year, 1300--4000nm. The 172 can do that

well; 105kts is fine with me. In a TMG, I'd probably stop to soar along the

way to wherever I'm going.

- more flying, less setup.

With the 172, I'm flying ten minutes after I arrive at the airport.

The trike involves hours of packing and assembly, driving to a site, and

the reverse at the end of the day. The gliders at the club still require

assembly, plus it's a social operation: I've still spent a day driving and

helping out at the field to get 30-60 minutes in the air.

- Taking passengers. I can't share the trike with anyone, and the overhead

of the glider club makes it difficult to share gliding: It costs a day to

share a 20 minute flight.

I've heard that TMGs can cruise at Cessna speeds, on less fuel, take a

passenger, and of course they can soar.

Where and how do I start shopping? Here are some criteria I can already guess

will be important. Suggest any considerations I might have missed.

- Price. A decent used 172 runs $40k; I can probably shop in that range.

The new price tags of $150k frighten me.

- Cost of operation. It sounds like a TMG can really save gas.

- Will I end up spending the difference in higher hourly

maintenance reserves on the engine?

- How is insurance?

- Can I tie it down on the ramp like a painted metal plane, or

will I wish I'd rented a hangar? Can I fit a TMG in a hangar?

- Is useful load for XC a constraint? I'm from a big-boned family, so two

of us might represent 450 pounds of meat plus 50-70 pounds of luggage.

No sweat for a 172, but will we fit in a TMG?

How do I even begin shopping for a TMG? Any nearby airport has a 172

with deflated tires and a For Sale sign tied to the prop. Where do I look

for TMGs? How do I decide which models fit my tastes?

Any owners in the Seattle area, I'd love to get together and ... let you

take me for a ride in your TMG. :v)

[Steve Sliwa]

Hi Jonh

Welcome aboard.

You have lots of questions, unfortunately it's tough to answer them as there is no one design, for example, that meets all of your criteria and costs $40K, or so I believe.

I don't find the maintenance to be high, but I think the insurance will be higher than the 172.

In terms of shopping, there are quite a fit listed in the classifieds of this website.

[Steve Sliwa]

Hi Jonh

Welcome aboard.

You have lots of questions, unfortunately it's tough to answer them as there is no one design, for example, that meets all of your criteria and costs $40K, or so I believe.

I don't find the maintenance to be high, but I think the insurance will be higher than the 172.

In terms of shopping, there are quite a fit listed in the classifieds of this website.

[Richard Pearl]

Jon

I concur with Steve's remarks.

1. $40K is the low end for a good - used - TMG. As with everything, older equipment will typically require more maintenance than a new ship.

2. I have a 1984 Grob 109 "A" insured for $50,000 and I pay $1,100 per year in insurance

3. In addition to our classified ad section, check out Wings and Wheels.com for used TMGs

4. Usable loads depends on the original limits, fuel you're carrying, and gear. I suspect that no one carries 50 - 70 lbs of luggage.

5. Many TMGs are left on the ramp and not in hangers. I've got canopy/wing-tail covers (about $1,500 for a complete set). Some TMGs have folding wings, so they can go into a small hangar, or shared in a larger one.

I'm happy to chat when I get back from overseas tomorrow. Email me at pennyrich@aol.com and we can set up a time to talk. Also, you might think about coming to the Cottonwood/Sedona fly-in. We will certainly get you airborne, and you can talk to a wide range of TMG'ers.

Richard

[Richard Pearl]

Jon

I concur with Steve's remarks.

1. $40K is the low end for a good - used - TMG. As with everything, older equipment will typically require more maintenance than a new ship.

2. I have a 1984 Grob 109 "A" insured for $50,000 and I pay $1,100 per year in insurance

3. In addition to our classified ad section, check out Wings and Wheels.com for used TMGs

4. Usable loads depends on the original limits, fuel you're carrying, and gear. I suspect that no one carries 50 - 70 lbs of luggage.

5. Many TMGs are left on the ramp and not in hangers. I've got canopy/wing-tail covers (about $1,500 for a complete set). Some TMGs have folding wings, so they can go into a small hangar, or shared in a larger one.

I'm happy to chat when I get back from overseas tomorrow. Email me at pennyrich@aol.com and we can set up a time to talk. Also, you might think about coming to the Cottonwood/Sedona fly-in. We will certainly get you airborne, and you can talk to a wide range of TMG'ers.

Richard