Multi Passengers and Other Info

[johndeere]

I want to thank steve and andy for letting me know about the free registration on this site and sorry for posting late, all i got right now is my Droid 3 cellphone, getting more cals due to winter than I get a chance to get on the net, now I got a break to post this.

Hello, I have 1 rather curious and very lingering unanswerable question that google seems to not getting me straight, even if there is, that's a lot of pages to flip through just to find it, if ever, so here's the question:

1. How many passengers, including the pilot as well, due to that it has a seat, can a motorglider pilot or any glider for that matter though, you can carry, providing the aircraft capable and designed from the start to do so?

here are some more question as well:

2. Is it true that, let's stay I slap a jet engine on it, I can fly it without additional rating, other than, of course even for me, get taught on how to use it though as a safety measure?

3. What other rating one can have as a tmg, if any as far as I'm concern?

4. If your in the USA, do you provide all the required training? I'm more interesting in motorglider if one can be designed to carry my family.

5. What about business opportunities such as, passengers, cargo, some sort of camera work, some sort of atmospheric work like sampling things at high altitude or whatever, you name it, can it be done?

6. What's the cost of getting trained as tmg pilot comparing to the normal private pilot in todays economics?

I'm not going into the lsa or that general direction when you can do more with a ppl glider license, so that's the direction I'm aiming for. Hopefully there's a category or something that will fall into perfectly, who knows. I love glider wings for fuel efficiency and low drag. I have 4 people in my family right now, so I would like to bring them along in one vehicle, so that's why I'm asking about the number of passengers, if i want to carry just 2 passengers, I'll go lsa, but as i said, I'm not going in that general direction, and I know the with a private pilot license, I can carry more and do more as well, the only direction I'm going for is the Private Pilot Glider Rating. There's a talk in popular science or was that Mechanic, forgot which, or somewhere on the website about an airline version of a multi passenger motorglider, so that's hope for me that there's a category and/or regulation I can fit into to do so, hehe, been to faa website multiple times, but still couldn't begin to figure out how to navigate or find things in the web of faa informations, regulations, and rules. Well, hope anyone here could help me out on this, I don't mind starting out in a 2 seater for training section though. I might have to go in an EAB category to get more than 2 seater, don't mind that route though, I've already making plans and design in my head using all available off the shelf parts and not custom, aka, simplicy and tried-and-true design, aka again, safety. Hope anyone here can help me out on this as I'm learning more about this motorglider, especiallt rules and regulation with them. Right now, I'm learning more about this while I wait til my truck payments gets finished, so feel free to offer any valuable informations, as well as standard and EAB classification in motorglider. Talk to you soon.

[johndeere]

I want to thank steve and andy for letting me know about the free registration on this site and sorry for posting late, all i got right now is my Droid 3 cellphone, getting more cals due to winter than I get a chance to get on the net, now I got a break to post this.

Hello, I have 1 rather curious and very lingering unanswerable question that google seems to not getting me straight, even if there is, that's a lot of pages to flip through just to find it, if ever, so here's the question:

1. How many passengers, including the pilot as well, due to that it has a seat, can a motorglider pilot or any glider for that matter though, you can carry, providing the aircraft capable and designed from the start to do so?

here are some more question as well:

2. Is it true that, let's stay I slap a jet engine on it, I can fly it without additional rating, other than, of course even for me, get taught on how to use it though as a safety measure?

3. What other rating one can have as a tmg, if any as far as I'm concern?

4. If your in the USA, do you provide all the required training? I'm more interesting in motorglider if one can be designed to carry my family.

5. What about business opportunities such as, passengers, cargo, some sort of camera work, some sort of atmospheric work like sampling things at high altitude or whatever, you name it, can it be done?

6. What's the cost of getting trained as tmg pilot comparing to the normal private pilot in todays economics?

I'm not going into the lsa or that general direction when you can do more with a ppl glider license, so that's the direction I'm aiming for. Hopefully there's a category or something that will fall into perfectly, who knows. I love glider wings for fuel efficiency and low drag. I have 4 people in my family right now, so I would like to bring them along in one vehicle, so that's why I'm asking about the number of passengers, if i want to carry just 2 passengers, I'll go lsa, but as i said, I'm not going in that general direction, and I know the with a private pilot license, I can carry more and do more as well, the only direction I'm going for is the Private Pilot Glider Rating. There's a talk in popular science or was that Mechanic, forgot which, or somewhere on the website about an airline version of a multi passenger motorglider, so that's hope for me that there's a category and/or regulation I can fit into to do so, hehe, been to faa website multiple times, but still couldn't begin to figure out how to navigate or find things in the web of faa informations, regulations, and rules. Well, hope anyone here could help me out on this, I don't mind starting out in a 2 seater for training section though. I might have to go in an EAB category to get more than 2 seater, don't mind that route though, I've already making plans and design in my head using all available off the shelf parts and not custom, aka, simplicy and tried-and-true design, aka again, safety. Hope anyone here can help me out on this as I'm learning more about this motorglider, especiallt rules and regulation with them. Right now, I'm learning more about this while I wait til my truck payments gets finished, so feel free to offer any valuable informations, as well as standard and EAB classification in motorglider. Talk to you soon.

[bberson]

Some quick thoughts.....

No 4 seat gliders or motorgliders exist in the world (as far as I know).

You could probably build one.

But consider this fact:

Most family members do not care to fly more than once in a small aircraft. Most two seat gliders are flown solo or with a student in the case of two seat trainers.

This is just my opinion, from decades of giving glider rides.

[bberson]

Some quick thoughts.....

No 4 seat gliders or motorgliders exist in the world (as far as I know).

You could probably build one.

But consider this fact:

Most family members do not care to fly more than once in a small aircraft. Most two seat gliders are flown solo or with a student in the case of two seat trainers.

This is just my opinion, from decades of giving glider rides.

[johndeere]

That I understood, I knew I had to build one though. My thought of body from plans like (seen in kitplane magazine): stallion (discontinued) but available in plans from aircraft spruce or one of the sleek Comp Air variants. But the question is, how and what, if any, classification, category, and or rules of faa that I can fly a multi passenger with a private pilot glider rating. I know there's a place somewhere under all those faa rules and regs for a multi passenger motorglider, it may not be easily found, in my knowledge so far from reading magazines, it depends on which faa personel you talk to and how they want and/or view it, that's my 2-cent, but I may be wrong there.

[johndeere]

That I understood, I knew I had to build one though. My thought of body from plans like (seen in kitplane magazine): stallion (discontinued) but available in plans from aircraft spruce or one of the sleek Comp Air variants. But the question is, how and what, if any, classification, category, and or rules of faa that I can fly a multi passenger with a private pilot glider rating. I know there's a place somewhere under all those faa rules and regs for a multi passenger motorglider, it may not be easily found, in my knowledge so far from reading magazines, it depends on which faa personel you talk to and how they want and/or view it, that's my 2-cent, but I may be wrong there.

[bberson]

The FAA does not have any motorglider certification rules because there is almost no need for it.

For you, the FAA or DAR would make a ruling on a case by case basis, I think.

They may require some criteria be met to define a "motorglider" or powered glider.

Such as L/D ratio (probably 20-1 min) and sink rate.

Have a look at FAA Basic Glider Criteria book (out of print)

[bberson]

The FAA does not have any motorglider certification rules because there is almost no need for it.

For you, the FAA or DAR would make a ruling on a case by case basis, I think.

They may require some criteria be met to define a "motorglider" or powered glider.

Such as L/D ratio (probably 20-1 min) and sink rate.

Have a look at FAA Basic Glider Criteria book (out of print)

[johndeere]

Lol, funny you mentioned 20:1 glide ratio min., that question i had in my head for a while is how do faa defines glider, mininum wingspan and/or minimum glide ratio, and 20:1 came to mind, and that number stuck in my head for a long time now, funny how that's turned out, to me, the number sounds like a fair target, even though I don't know much about glider rules, cool. Never heard of that book, since it's out of print, where can I download it, if available in pdf?

[johndeere]

Lol, funny you mentioned 20:1 glide ratio min., that question i had in my head for a while is how do faa defines glider, mininum wingspan and/or minimum glide ratio, and 20:1 came to mind, and that number stuck in my head for a long time now, funny how that's turned out, to me, the number sounds like a fair target, even though I don't know much about glider rules, cool. Never heard of that book, since it's out of print, where can I download it, if available in pdf?

[Thermalseeker]

There is a criteria the FAA uses to define a "powered glider", but the FAA does not recognize the term "motorglider". Here's what the EAA says:

There is no official definition of a "motor glider". The FAA does not use that term. They do call out a requirement for a "powered glider", but the aircraft is still considered a "glider" even though it has an engine.

In order for an aircraft to be considered a "powered glider" it must meet the following criteria:

(i) The number of occupants does not exceed two;

(ii) Maximum weight does not exceed 850 kg (1874 pounds); and

(iii) The maximum weight to wing span squared (w/b2) does not exceed 3.0 kg/M2 (0.62 lb./ft.2).

Item (iii) is key, because many aircraft that people would like to consider a "motorglider" won't meet the span loading formula. Again, the formula is the maximum gross weight divided by the wing span squared. Here's an example:

An aircraft with a gross weight of 1250 lbs and a wing span of 36 feet would work out to .96 lb/ft.2 according to the formula, which would not meet the requirement. But an aircraft with the same gross weight but a 46 foot wing span would work out to .59 lb/ft.2, which does meet the requirement.

There are some significant advantages to a "powered glider" over an LSA, too. Neither requires a medical, but a powered glider can enter Class B airspace if properly equipped (Mode C, 2 way comm, etc) A powered glider can also fly much higher, up to 17,999' msl, but not including FL180 unless ATC grants an extension such as a "wave box". An LSA is limited to 10,000' msl, or 2000' agl, whichever is higher and only then if there is visual reference to the ground. So, no sneaking through a "wave window" and flying VFR on top. A "powered glider" like my Ximango can also be flown at night if properly equipped and if the pilot is qualified. Aeromot added night VFR to the Ximango Type Certificate some time ago. Mine has nav lights and although I rarely fly at night it has come in handy a couple of times when I was arriving later than expected.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Thermalseeker

[Thermalseeker]

There is a criteria the FAA uses to define a "powered glider", but the FAA does not recognize the term "motorglider". Here's what the EAA says:

There is no official definition of a "motor glider". The FAA does not use that term. They do call out a requirement for a "powered glider", but the aircraft is still considered a "glider" even though it has an engine.

In order for an aircraft to be considered a "powered glider" it must meet the following criteria:

(i) The number of occupants does not exceed two;

(ii) Maximum weight does not exceed 850 kg (1874 pounds); and

(iii) The maximum weight to wing span squared (w/b2) does not exceed 3.0 kg/M2 (0.62 lb./ft.2).

Item (iii) is key, because many aircraft that people would like to consider a "motorglider" won't meet the span loading formula. Again, the formula is the maximum gross weight divided by the wing span squared. Here's an example:

An aircraft with a gross weight of 1250 lbs and a wing span of 36 feet would work out to .96 lb/ft.2 according to the formula, which would not meet the requirement. But an aircraft with the same gross weight but a 46 foot wing span would work out to .59 lb/ft.2, which does meet the requirement.

There are some significant advantages to a "powered glider" over an LSA, too. Neither requires a medical, but a powered glider can enter Class B airspace if properly equipped (Mode C, 2 way comm, etc) A powered glider can also fly much higher, up to 17,999' msl, but not including FL180 unless ATC grants an extension such as a "wave box". An LSA is limited to 10,000' msl, or 2000' agl, whichever is higher and only then if there is visual reference to the ground. So, no sneaking through a "wave window" and flying VFR on top. A "powered glider" like my Ximango can also be flown at night if properly equipped and if the pilot is qualified. Aeromot added night VFR to the Ximango Type Certificate some time ago. Mine has nav lights and although I rarely fly at night it has come in handy a couple of times when I was arriving later than expected.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Thermalseeker

[johndeere]

Then if that's that rules can't be deviate from to allow more than 2 passenger on a motor glider with private pilot glider rating, then why there's a multi passenger "power glider" that Nick Kaloterakis designed for the future airlines? You can see it at the bottom of this page http://m.popsci.com/technology/article/2012-04/jets-future ?

[johndeere]

Then if that's that rules can't be deviate from to allow more than 2 passenger on a motor glider with private pilot glider rating, then why there's a multi passenger "power glider" that Nick Kaloterakis designed for the future airlines? You can see it at the bottom of this page http://m.popsci.com/technology/article/2012-04/jets-future ?

[Thermalseeker]

Designing it is one thing. Getting the FAA to sign off on it as a glider is another matter entirely. Jet power in anything causes some confusion with the FAR's, too. This month's AOPA magazine has an article about the BD5J and the Subsonex, both single seat jets. A Private rated pilot would be required to attain an additional type rating required for jets or a letter of authorization for an Experimental. There was also some mention of HpH's jet powered glider, the 304S. It has a small turbine that retracts into the fuselage when not in use.

Here's an excerpt from the AOPA article regarding how the FAA treats jets:

[h=3]FAA and jets

[/h]The reason behind most jet regulations is simple: Jets fly fast, high, and far; therefore, the pilots who fly them need special training. For decades, using propulsion type as the dividing line has worked well. After all, you don’t see many piston singles with Mach meters in the upper flight levels, nor do you see many jets doing touch and goes for fun on a Saturday morning.

The advent of small, reliable jet engines such as the TJ-100 will certainly smudge that line. There are no light jet regs, so they’re lumped in with the Lears, Citations, and Gulfstreams. Not bad company, but not necessarily appropriate for a jet-launched glider with a stall speed of 38 knots—or an aircraft like the SubSonex, with about the same performance as many high-end piston homebuilts.

Maybe the FAA will come around, but for now, flying any turbojet-powered airplane will require a type rating (or Letter of Authorization in lieu of a type rating for Experimentals). The details of what will be required for an LOA in the SubSonex are still being debated, but additional training will be required to ensure the pilot understands the engine, systems, and differences in energy management. Despite the somewhat anachronistic regulatory situation, the folks at the FAA have been helpful and supportive of the SubSonex. Let’s face it, even the FAA recognizes cool.

I know of several glider ride operations that use the Schweitzer 2-32 because it has a fairly wide back seat and can hold two skinny people, but I don't think the 2 seat requirement extends to the entire glider fleet, just powered gliders. It appears if you want more than 2 seats it will have to be Experimental or Utility category.

[Thermalseeker]

Designing it is one thing. Getting the FAA to sign off on it as a glider is another matter entirely. Jet power in anything causes some confusion with the FAR's, too. This month's AOPA magazine has an article about the BD5J and the Subsonex, both single seat jets. A Private rated pilot would be required to attain an additional type rating required for jets or a letter of authorization for an Experimental. There was also some mention of HpH's jet powered glider, the 304S. It has a small turbine that retracts into the fuselage when not in use.

Here's an excerpt from the AOPA article regarding how the FAA treats jets:

[h=3]FAA and jets

[/h]The reason behind most jet regulations is simple: Jets fly fast, high, and far; therefore, the pilots who fly them need special training. For decades, using propulsion type as the dividing line has worked well. After all, you don’t see many piston singles with Mach meters in the upper flight levels, nor do you see many jets doing touch and goes for fun on a Saturday morning.

The advent of small, reliable jet engines such as the TJ-100 will certainly smudge that line. There are no light jet regs, so they’re lumped in with the Lears, Citations, and Gulfstreams. Not bad company, but not necessarily appropriate for a jet-launched glider with a stall speed of 38 knots—or an aircraft like the SubSonex, with about the same performance as many high-end piston homebuilts.

Maybe the FAA will come around, but for now, flying any turbojet-powered airplane will require a type rating (or Letter of Authorization in lieu of a type rating for Experimentals). The details of what will be required for an LOA in the SubSonex are still being debated, but additional training will be required to ensure the pilot understands the engine, systems, and differences in energy management. Despite the somewhat anachronistic regulatory situation, the folks at the FAA have been helpful and supportive of the SubSonex. Let’s face it, even the FAA recognizes cool.

I know of several glider ride operations that use the Schweitzer 2-32 because it has a fairly wide back seat and can hold two skinny people, but I don't think the 2 seat requirement extends to the entire glider fleet, just powered gliders. It appears if you want more than 2 seats it will have to be Experimental or Utility category.

[johndeere]

True, new things coming out, getting the faa and other regulation bodies scrambling to figure out where this plane (or any plane for that matter), that sits right on the fine line with multiple categories and regs facing the plane for its chance to have its place, and its up to the regulating bodies to solve the puzzle. True, figure very much that the aircraft will be built and needs to be in the experimental amateur built (EAB) category, but, what's Utility category? Never read about that in any magazines i read from, I read Kitplane and Plane & Pilot magazines.

[johndeere]

True, new things coming out, getting the faa and other regulation bodies scrambling to figure out where this plane (or any plane for that matter), that sits right on the fine line with multiple categories and regs facing the plane for its chance to have its place, and its up to the regulating bodies to solve the puzzle. True, figure very much that the aircraft will be built and needs to be in the experimental amateur built (EAB) category, but, what's Utility category? Never read about that in any magazines i read from, I read Kitplane and Plane & Pilot magazines.

[Thermalseeker]

Here's a link to the page on the FAA's site which describes the various categories. Looks like all gliders are limited to 2 seats. I suppose those folks taking 2 in the backseat of a 2-32 are bending the rules a bit:

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/small_airplanes/categories/

[Thermalseeker]

Here's a link to the page on the FAA's site which describes the various categories. Looks like all gliders are limited to 2 seats. I suppose those folks taking 2 in the backseat of a 2-32 are bending the rules a bit:

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/small_airplanes/categories/

[bberson]

Here's a link to the page on the FAA's site which describes the various categories. Looks like all gliders are limited to 2 seats. I suppose those folks taking 2 in the backseat of a 2-32 are bending the rules a bit:

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/small_airplanes/categories/

The above page is for Type Certificated categories.

For EAB see the FAA application form document ( in the web link below) For experimental, there is no requirement to list the aircraft in any category on the application.

So it can be whatever you want, I suppose.

Click on red PDF button to open this FAA AC to see form:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/4DB2C5CD655CB3CC86257647004AF4EE?OpenDocument

Edited December 10, 2012 by bberson

[bberson]

Here's a link to the page on the FAA's site which describes the various categories. Looks like all gliders are limited to 2 seats. I suppose those folks taking 2 in the backseat of a 2-32 are bending the rules a bit:

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/small_airplanes/categories/

The above page is for Type Certificated categories.

For EAB see the FAA application form document ( in the web link below) For experimental, there is no requirement to list the aircraft in any category on the application.

So it can be whatever you want, I suppose.

Click on red PDF button to open this FAA AC to see form:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/4DB2C5CD655CB3CC86257647004AF4EE?OpenDocument

Edited December 10, 2012 by bberson

[Thermalseeker]

There's been a Challenger II for sale on Barnstormers on and off for a few months. The owner says it's registered as a powered glider. I figured it must have been registered Experimental/Exhibition or Experimental Amateur Built. I can't see how he could get a Challenger II to otherwise meet the powered glider formula without major mods to lengthen the wings.

[Thermalseeker]

There's been a Challenger II for sale on Barnstormers on and off for a few months. The owner says it's registered as a powered glider. I figured it must have been registered Experimental/Exhibition or Experimental Amateur Built. I can't see how he could get a Challenger II to otherwise meet the powered glider formula without major mods to lengthen the wings.

[bberson]

This thread at Homebuiltairplanes.com is a recent discussion about registering an E-AB airplane as a glider: http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/rules-regulations-flight-safety-better-pilots/6072-glider-rating-night-vfr.html

Poot #66 has a document link with much detail.