Deciding on my next airplane purchase

[chasers03]

I am again trying to decide what to do as my Lambada engine is nearing the end of its first life. I have looked at comparing airplanes in a less emotional way. Attached and following is a comparison chart of the Phoenix to the Bristell which is one of the best touring LSA's I have found. Carrell and I seem to put cross country travel & comfort higher on our list of flying fun criteria than soaring. However along with the Phoenix glider attributes comes less pilot rating needs, ie medical, more altitude and of course safety of finding an emergency landing spot. Any thoughts will be appreciated.....Steve ChaseComparing Phoenix to Bristell.docx

Comparing airplanes for possible purchase

Scoring = + 1 = Minor advantage; + 2 = Moderate advantage; + 3 = Major advantage

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD]Plane attribute[/TD]

[TD]Phoenix[/TD]

[TD]Points[/TD]

[TD]Bristell[/TD]

[TD]Points[/TD]

[TD]Other Plus’s[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Cockpit Width[/TD]

[TD]43â€[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD] 51†[/TD]

[TD]+2[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Seats[/TD]

[TD]Plush w Head Rest[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Plush w Head Rest[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Canopy[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Auto Latching [/TD]

[TD]+1[/TD]

[TD]Built in Composite SunShade [/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Take Off / Landing Site Picture[/TD]

[TD]Out to Side[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Over Nose [/TD]

[TD]+2[/TD]

[TD]Less challenging[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Adjustable Rudder peddles[/TD]

[TD]NA [/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]5’ 4†[/TD]

[TD]+1[/TD]

[TD] Carrell is 5’ 1â€[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Steering & Brakes[/TD]

[TD]Both Wheels[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Individual Wheels [/TD]

[TD]+1[/TD]

[TD]Turning Radius[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Throttle[/TD]

[TD]Vernier[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Lever[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]I like my Vernier[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Panel[/TD]

[TD]Versatile[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Versatile[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Bristell more space[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Ventilation[/TD]

[TD]--[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]--[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]About the same[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Baggage[/TD]

[TD]100# - 8 cu ft[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]121# (33# + 88# Wings) [/TD]

[TD]+1[/TD]

[TD]3 places, Seat removal not required[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Engine & Cavity[/TD]

[TD]Compact[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD] Spacious w Carb Heat [/TD]

[TD]+2[/TD]

[TD]Engine Thermostat’s[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Safety Glide Ratio[/TD]

[TD]32 to 1 [/TD]

[TD]+2[/TD]

[TD]11 to 1[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Cruise Speed 5250 rpm[/TD]

[TD]110K[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]120K[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Useful Load[/TD]

[TD]600 #[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]595 #[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Fuel / Range / Efficiency[/TD]

[TD]26 Gal / 700 nm / 6 hrs [/TD]

[TD]+1[/TD]

[TD]31.6 Gal / 650 nm / 6 hrs[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Service Ceiling [/TD]

[TD]18,000’ [/TD]

[TD]+2[/TD]

[TD]12,500’[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Landing & Take Off Distances[/TD]

[TD]400’+[/TD]

[TD]+1[/TD]

[TD]550’+[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Air Brakes[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Stall Speeds[/TD]

[TD]38K[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]36K & 42K[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Cross Wind Capability[/TD]

[TD]15 K[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]15 K[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Certification[/TD]

[TD]E or S-SLA Glider [/TD]

[TD]+2[/TD]

[TD]E or S-SLA[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Pilot Rating[/TD]

[TD]Glider [/TD]

[TD]+2[/TD]

[TD]Private or Sport [/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Glider Rating Only No Medical[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Versatility[/TD]

[TD]Cross Country/Soaring [/TD]

[TD]+2[/TD]

[TD]Cross Country[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Wing Span Variable[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Composite / Metal[/TD]

[TD]Composite[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Metal[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Finish Paint[/TD]

[TD]GelCoat [/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Urethane [/TD]

[TD]+2[/TD]

[TD]More UV Tolerant Longer Life[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Hangering wing span[/TD]

[TD]35’[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]27’ [/TD]

[TD]+1[/TD]

[TD]Wing Tip removal required[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Looks Appeal & Paint Schemes[/TD]

[TD]--[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]+1[/TD]

[TD]Many Paint Schemes[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Landing Gear[/TD]

[TD]Tail Wheel[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Tri Cycle [/TD]

[TD]+1[/TD]

[TD]Insurance and Wheel sizes same[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Flaps/Ailerons’[/TD]

[TD]Flaperons[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]+1[/TD]

[TD]Flaps independent[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Pitot Tube[/TD]

[TD]Should be removed[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Heated w/ AOA [/TD]

[TD]+1[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Landing Lights[/TD]

[TD]Landing & Nav[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]LED’s[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Propeller[/TD]

[TD]2 Blade[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]3 Blade[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Price & Delivery[/TD]

[TD]1 year[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]6 months[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]About the same price[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Total Score[/TD]

[TD] (5-2’s, 2-1’s)[/TD]

[TD]+ 12[/TD]

[TD] (4-2’s, 9-1’s)[/TD]

[TD]+ 17[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

Resources = http://www.phoenixairusa.com/LSA_Glider.html & http://www.brmaero.com/

[No longer active on TMGA]

I have some comments that might change scores incrementally:

Adjustable rudder pedals: I think these might be ground adjustable, adequate if you don't switch seats often.

Seats: Is the Bristell still an LSA with three seats? I thought LSA was limited to two seats. Or does the two seat limit apply to the pilot?

Engine and cavity: The Phoenix cowling completely removes in 5 minutes (top and bottom pieces), apparently giving excellent access to the engine.

Glide ratio: This is a big deal to my wife (me, too), and is one reason she feels comfortable riding in it. She'd give it a +3!

Cruise Speed 5250 rpm: The Phoenix achieves 110KTAS @ 5000 rpm; at 5250 rpm, it would cruise about 116 kts. But, that puts in too close to Vne (120 KTAS) for most pilots, so 110 KTAS is a comfortable speed.

Hangaring: The long wing can be removed in 3 minutes total; the short wing tips would not require removal, as they only add about a foot to the wingspan.

Paint schemes: The Phoenix can be nicely decorated, as Jim's is, with large graphics - not the same as large areas of paint, of course.

Flaps/Ailerons: I'm curious about why a pilot would prefer independent flaps over flaperons.

Aircraft rescue system: This is a big deal to my wife (me, too), and is another reason she feels comfortable riding in it. She'd give it a +3!

I apologize if this doesn't make choosing any easier ... but we are fortunate to have so many good choices in the LSA field.

[Gfeldman]

I realize that glide ratio has been already mentioned but for me the challenge of being able to shut off an engine and search for lift is worth alot. Comparing these two planes strikes me as apples to oranges.

[Thermalseeker]

If you're a soaring pilot the beauty of a TMG is when you arrive at your destination you have your toy with you. There's also the off-the-scale convenience of never needing a tow.

In the case of the Phoenix, one of the most impressive things to me as someone who likes to travel by air is the baggage area. It can only be described as "cavernous". So, you can take your toys with you in your toy. The Phoenix has plenty of room for golf clubs, tennis gear, diving gear, fishing gear, etc., in behind the seats. I recall it being placarded for 100 lbs, too. I don't think you'll find another LSA that will come close to that.

One of the cons I see with the Phoenix is prop clearance. I prefer to do wheel landings in taildraggers, particularly in a cross wind/sticky pavement situation. There isn't much room for error with the Phoenix. I noticed when I flew with Jim he did a 3 pointer when we landed. That's fine when the winds are light and on the nose, but if you try to do that at Minden or in Parowan, where it's common to land in 45 cross at 30+ knots on a soarable day, you're gonna get bit.

The other con I see is the choice of finish material. It would be nice if they were to offer a urethane finish. Were I to buy a Phoenix the first thing I would do is block it down and top coat it with urethane to head off the inevitable yellowing and crazing.

[Gfeldman]

With respect to the last comment by Thermalseeker I owned a Grob 109b for 22 years which was also finished in gel-coat. I store the plane outside for 8 months of the year fully covered with custom Sunbrella covers. I applied Lesonal cleaner about 1x/year. At the end of this period there were a few cracks at the perimeter of the spoiler box but absolutely no yellowing.

UV protectants have gotten better since and I think a once a year cleaning and protectant application should avoid all yellowing especially if the plane is hangared.

George Feldman

[No longer active on TMGA]

One of the cons I see with the Phoenix is prop clearance. I prefer to do wheel landings in taildraggers, particularly in a cross wind/sticky pavement situation. There isn't much room for error with the Phoenix. I noticed when I flew with Jim he did a 3 pointer when we landed. That's fine when the winds are light and on the nose, but if you try to do that at Minden or in Parowan, where it's common to land in 45 cross at 30+ knots on a soarable day, you're gonna get bit.

The other con I see is the choice of finish material. It would be nice if they were to offer a urethane finish. Were I to buy a Phoenix the first thing I would do is block it down and top coat it with urethane to head off the inevitable yellowing and crazing.

Keeping in mind that I'm a beginner in conventional gear aircraft (the Phoenix is my first, not counting a few hours in a Citabria 30+ years ago) ...

Jim Lee lifted the tail of a Phoenix to show me how high it had to be, just to get the propeller down to 6" off the ground. Sitting in the glider, it looks like you are going to die, the nose down attitude is so extreme! Try it on your plane. I've read contradictory views about wheel vs 3 point landings in conventional gear aircraft. One point I remember is you will have to get that tail wheel on the ground whichever you choose, and the sooner it is on the ground, the sooner it can stabilize the direction of the aircraft. Faced with a strong crosswind component I had no easy way to avoid (like landing somewhere else), I'd use -4 flap, 3 point it, and be ready to go around.

For 7 or 8 years, I've flown my self-launching sailplane at Parowan during the 10 day motorglider camp in June or July. During those years, "45 cross at 30+ knots" winds were very rare, and I never had to land in such extreme conditions. On a few days over the years, I (and many others) chose not to fly because the weather forecast was for high winds on the ground in the afternoon, but most of the time winds aloft meant the soaring was going to be tough anyway. And, with a motorglider, you can always power the 20 miles over to Cedar City, with several runway directions to choose from. Don't let the fear of high winds make you miss the great Parowan soaring experience!

I also wish polyurethane paint was an option, as it is with almost all the sailplane manufacturers; however, the gel coat on my 20 year old (3500 hours) ASH 26 E has only slight crazing in a few places, and nobody notices it. It's always been kept in a trailer, which helps. I'm 72 now, so if I'm still flying the Phoenix in 19 years, I won't care if the finish looks like an alligator's skin!

Edited January 22, 2015 by Eric Greenwell

[No longer active on TMGA]

Let me emphasize that 30 knot winds, even down the runway, are a bad idea in the Phoenix. The owner's manual states: "In gusty wind or wind speed more than 25 kts flight operations should be stopped."

I and a number of other owners have experienced a wing lifting while rolling on all three wheels after landing, and it doesn't take a 30 knot wind to cause that. Just taxi into the wind a bit too fast, and a gust will do it. If it's gusty, I take care to slow way down, and leave the spoilers fully open, before turning off the runway.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Eric Greenwell

[Thermalseeker]

I've been flying taildraggers for over 35 years. I solo'd in a J-3 at 16. It depends on the airplane, but most taildraggers that I've flown I prefer wheel landings even in calm conditions. Over the years I've had a lot of pilots claim 3 point landings are the only way, but it was because they didn't have wheel landing skills or were afraid of wheel landings more than anything else. I think you would be hard pressed to find a high time taildragger pilot who would favor 3 point landings in a cross.

I towed gliders for about 5 years and frequently would land in a quartering tail up to about 10 kts, landing back towards the grid so I would reduce the turn around time for the next tow. Wheel landings are the only way in a tail wind. Wave conditions here can get really wild, too. My strip sits down in amongst some foothills and it tends to get fairly turbulent if it's windy. I've landed many times after towing in wave conditions here and had bruises on my shoulders from banging off the straps. So, no, I'm not afraid of the wind at all. I do have a healthy respect for it and the only way to land in those conditions and keep it in one piece is to wheel land the aircraft. If it's crossing you stick the upwind main wheel first, then the downwind main. You keep the stick into the wind and keep it straight with rudder (and brakes if you're on pavement). I can go down the runway with the tail off and one main wheel on and hold the center line from one end to the other. So, I'm not sure about this idea of not having directional control on wheel landings. It's all about knowing how to use your feet. I certainly would not limit myself to 3 point only landings. It behooves any tail wheel pilot to learn wheel landings. It may very well save your bacon one day. As I said before if you do 3 pointers in strong cross conditions you're going to eventually get bit.

I must just be lucky. I've been to Parowan twice (June/July) and both times it was very windy in the afternoon. Ditto landing anywhere in the plains states traveling to and from. I landed at West Woodward, OK, once my Ximango when it was 35 gusting to 42, fortunately straight down the runway. I had to keep the spoilers full open just to be able to taxi at a slow walking speed and not have a wing try to lift off. I've landed at Plainview, TX, when it was blowing like that, too. I've also landed several times at Minden when the westerlies kicked up late in the day and it was blowing in excess of 30-35 kts, 45 cross on the main runway. I found out sometime later that some folks will land on the abandoned east-west runway at Minden when it gets like that, but the airport authority frowns on it. If you opt to "land west" at Minden you'd better have your spot landing skills shined up.

Sometimes you have no choice when you're traveling and IMHO it's important to be able to have a wheel landing technique down pat to the point where you don't have to think about it, it just happens. Here's an example of why. I was going west to Durango, CO, several years ago in my Ximango to visit some friends. I ran into weather in NE New Mexico and had to divert south to an alternate for fuel. The alternate also had weather by the time I got there, so I had to divert to my 2nd alternate (Taos, NM). I landed there at Taos when it was 28 gusting to 35, 90 cross to the runway, well outside the demonstrated crosswind component of the Ximango. At that point I really had no choice because I was low on fuel. Although it was a pucker factor of about 42 landing wasn't hard at all. In fact, it was easier than landing at my home strip in wave conditions. I stuck the upwind wheel first, then the downwind wheel, then full spoilers and brought the tail down. The Ximango has a 9' gear stance. So, the differential braking is very powerful on pavement, provided you know how to use it.

Taking off in that sort of wind and cross is what will get you because you will quickly run out of rudder in a left cross when you lift the tail and don't add some left bank and topside rudder. The gyroscopic effects of the spinning prop tend to want to turn the nose left when you raise the tail and if you don't compensate by adding some bank you will find yourself at the end of your rudder's effectiveness. Fortunately, it was a right cross that day at Taos. So, take off wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. The winglets on the Ximango tend to want to turn it into the wind. In a left cross you can find yourself out of rudder pretty quick if you don't raise the downwind wheel and tail first. If you tried to depart in a 3 point stance your rudder effectiveness runs out even faster because the effective area of the rudder to the relative wind is diminished due to the hinge angle. This is why the swept tail Cessna's don't make particularly good taildraggers. In a right cross the two forces essentially cancelled each other out thanks to the winglets. I was able to depart Taos after refueling without incident by holding a full deflection of aileron into the wind and lifting off the tail and the the downwind wheel first, while holding the runway heading, slightly nose down and letting it accelerate. As the speed increases I decrease the aileron input and fly away holding a slight bank into the wind with topside rudder. Sort of a climbing Dutch roll.

WRT, gel coat, I've hosted a composite repair shop here at my strip for the past 15 years. We see a lot of variance in the longevity of gel coat depending on what is used and who did the work. Schleicher uses top notch materials and always has. They are the best, no doubt about it. They have some trouble with spar wave on the -26, -27 and -29's, but we've developed a method where we can measure and correct that issue fairly cost effectively.

With proper care a typical Schleicher finish will last upwards of 20 years. They know what they're doing. Time will tell if that will hold true with the toys coming out of Eastern Europe. We recommend periodic block sanding to keep the finish in top shape However, all gel coat is not the same. We did a full refinish on a Lambada a few years ago that was only 5 years old. It had cracks in the gel coat you could stick a nickle in and the finish had become chalky. Ordinarily, the chalkiness is just oxidation and will buff off, but this was different. It clogged the sandpaper really badly. It was almost like the gel coat wasn't fully cured. I saw another Lambada like that out in California, too. I saw a fairly new Pipistrel Taurus a while back that wasn't more than 3 years old and it was already showing signs of crazing. Even with the Schleicher's you're wise to block sand the entire airframe about every 3-4 years (depending on how much time it spends outside). If you only fly a few times a year you can probably stretch that to 5-6 years. I you fly a lot or leave your airplane out in the sun a lot it's wise to head off the crazing before it starts. We have customers who fly comp that leave their airplane outside a lot who bring their glider in every year for a light sanding and buffing. This will go a long way towards preventing crazing entirely and it helps with yellowing, too. By about the 4th sanding you're ready for a refinish, too and the bulk of the work is done. The crazing and yellowing is a reaction to UV exposure. If the surface prep was done right crazing starts from the outside and works in. If the prep work wasn't done right you can get cracking from the inside, too. Not much you can do about that but take it all off and reprofile. With typical crazing this periodic sanding removes the micro-fine cracks before they become visible. Gel coat is a polyester. It already hardens to a point where it is a lot like glass. UV exposure makes polyester shrink and it becomes even more brittle. Then, add the crazing and flexing from flight loads and it causes the finish to deteriorate fairly quickly. At the point the cracks become visible you've lost the UV protection for the underlying resin. Bad ju-ju. If you let gel coat kick in a cup to full hardness, then drop it on a concrete floor it will shatter like glass. Do the same thing with urethane and it will bounce around like a rubber ball. That's the key difference between the two. That, and urethane doesn't yellow with UV exposure.

No thread that mentions Parowan would be complete without some eye candy. Here's a shot from my 2010 trip. This was in early July:

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Edited January 23, 2015 by Thermalseeker