Take Off Problem - May 2003

My wife and I flew from our home base in Rhode Island to Pittsfield Mass, a
distance of about 100 n mil. A fine trip and uneventful. Then, on a second
flight, we went soaring in the hills near Pittsfield; again a delight.
Beautiful weather, CAVU, wind very slight and from varying directions,
density altitude less than 2,000 feet.

=============================

Date:         Thu, 22 May 2003 08:35:38 -0400
Reply-To:     Ximango Owners Group <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Ximango Owners Group <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Ted Gordon <tedjgordon@ATT.NET>
Subject:      Take Off Problem

Hi All:

I had an unusual problem on Sunday; perhaps others have as well or perhaps
someone in the group could help me understand what's up.

My wife and I flew from our home base in Rhode Island to Pittsfield Mass, a
distance of about 100 n mil. A fine trip and uneventful. Then, on a second
flight, we went soaring in the hills near Pittsfield; again a delight.
Beautiful weather, CAVU, wind very slight and from varying directions,
density altitude less than 2,000 feet.

The landing was fair- tailwheel first- but only a slight bump. A fellow
pilot walking by our plane on the ramp said he thought the left wheel
looked like it was turned a bit outboard. I looked and saw what he saw. We
sighted it as best we could and decided it was an illusion.

I flew again alone that afternoon but the take off was surprising. As usual
I used a three point take off with the stick held back. Just as the Ximango
was breaking ground and the tail wheel was lifting off, the plane turned to
the left. I corrected and continued the take off, and had a great soaring
flight. Landing was uneventful.

Yesterday, on Monday morning, I called a mechanic over to help see if
indeed there was a problem. He checked the landing gear- nothing appeared
bent or broken. We climbed aboard to head home but the take off was very
eventful. Once again, no wind to speak of (4 knots from various
directions). The acceleration and roll down the runway seemed normal. At
the take off point, the plane once again veered left almost off the runway
this time. I aborted the take off, taxied back, and turned the plane over
to the mechanics. We drove home.

The mechanics called today and again said they could find nothing wrong.
They measured the toe-out and found what they called a very minor mis-
alignment. Using straight edges along side the wheels they found that at
four feet distance, the straight edges were off by 1/2 inch. This works out
to a misalignment of about 0.6 degrees.

Is this misalignment enough to worry about?
Has anyone else ever had this problem?
What else could have caused the problem?

Thanks for your suggestions.

Best
Ted Gordon

PS I talked with Denis Michaud yesterday afternoon. He was as helpful as
ever and says this may have simply been p factor- lifting of the tail wheel
before the rudder was fully effective; expericed previously by others.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 May 2003 09:03:10 -0400
Reply-To:     Ximango Owners Group <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Ximango Owners Group <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Bruce Schimmel <bruce@SCHIMMEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Take Off Problem
In-Reply-To:  <LISTSERV%2003052208353887@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

To prevent any unwanted veering to the left or premature rotation
(that's sounds funny, doesn't it?), instead of only holding the a/c
to the ground with the stick full back, I now do my t/o roll with the
air brakes fully deployed.  When the rudder is effective, around 45
kts,  I drop the brakes, and holding a/c in ground effect, accelerate
to climb out at 60-65  kts.

My t/o roll does not seem to be lengthened. And since doing this, I
have had excellent results, and will be at 200 ft by the time I pass
the 2500 ft mark. No more scraped wingtips!

Using the air brakes lets *me* decide when to rotate, not some gust of wind.


>Hi All:
>
>I had an unusual problem on Sunday; perhaps others have as well or perhaps
>someone in the group could help me understand what's up.
>
>My wife and I flew from our home base in Rhode Island to Pittsfield Mass, a
>distance of about 100 n mil. A fine trip and uneventful. Then, on a second
>flight, we went soaring in the hills near Pittsfield; again a delight.
>Beautiful weather, CAVU, wind very slight and from varying directions,
>density altitude less than 2,000 feet.
>
>The landing was fair- tailwheel first- but only a slight bump. A fellow
>pilot walking by our plane on the ramp said he thought the left wheel
>looked like it was turned a bit outboard. I looked and saw what he saw. We
>sighted it as best we could and decided it was an illusion.
>
>I flew again alone that afternoon but the take off was surprising. As usual
>I used a three point take off with the stick held back. Just as the Ximango
>was breaking ground and the tail wheel was lifting off, the plane turned to
>the left. I corrected and continued the take off, and had a great soaring
>flight. Landing was uneventful.
>
>Yesterday, on Monday morning, I called a mechanic over to help see if
>indeed there was a problem. He checked the landing gear- nothing appeared
>bent or broken. We climbed aboard to head home but the take off was very
>eventful. Once again, no wind to speak of (4 knots from various
>directions). The acceleration and roll down the runway seemed normal. At
>the take off point, the plane once again veered left almost off the runway
>this time. I aborted the take off, taxied back, and turned the plane over
>to the mechanics. We drove home.
>
>The mechanics called today and again said they could find nothing wrong.
>They measured the toe-out and found what they called a very minor mis-
>alignment. Using straight edges along side the wheels they found that at
>four feet distance, the straight edges were off by 1/2 inch. This works out
>to a misalignment of about 0.6 degrees.
>
>Is this misalignment enough to worry about?
>Has anyone else ever had this problem?
>What else could have caused the problem?
>
>Thanks for your suggestions.
>
>Best
>Ted Gordon
>
>PS I talked with Denis Michaud yesterday afternoon. He was as helpful as
>ever and says this may have simply been p factor- lifting of the tail wheel
>before the rudder was fully effective; expericed previously by others.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 28 May 2003 10:53:03 -0400
Reply-To:     Ximango Owners Group <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Ximango Owners Group <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Ted Gordon <tedjgordon@ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Take Off Problem

Hi all:

As a follow up, here is a summary of the possible explanations of a left
veering take off:

Gust from the left
Excessive cross wind from the left
Dragging left brake
Out of alignment main gear
Broken rudder lower mount
Out of alignment tail wheel
CG out of tolerance

The usual forces of P factor and twisting slip stream of course provide
force to the left but these won't explain why only some rare lift offs give
a problem.


Now add two others:

Defective motor mount (suggested by Aeromot)
Holding in slight aileron deflection (suggested by me)

Mechanics and I checked 200.063 carefully and found nothing wrong
physically. Since my problem developed during a three point take off, that
leaves gusts from the left (a possibility) or holding in a slight aileron
deflection.

I flew yesterday and checked my three point take off procedure carefully. I
think it is definately possible to indavertantly preset the ailerons with a
slight deflection at the beginning of the take off roll. Ordinarily the
stick comes full back, the engine is run to take off rpm/s and down the
runway you go. I have added to my mental check list looking out at both
wings at the aileron positions to check for symetry before the take roll
starts when the stick comes to the full aft position.

I don't know if that was the problem or not, but the take off and flight
were fine.

Best
Ted