Engine Won't Start - Jan 2008

I sent this message out to the group, but it bounced back.  Could you 
forward it to the group?  Getting this engine started has been very 
frustrating, and I have lost 3 flying sessions so far

=================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:34:30 -0500
Reply-To:     "Ximango Owners Group (XOG)" <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       "Ximango Owners Group (XOG)" <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Bruce SCHIMMEL <bruce@SCHIMMEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Engine Won't Start!
Comments: To: Holliday Obrecht <HollidayObrecht@copper.net>
In-Reply-To:  <20080122172030.9FDDAF39@resin18.mta.everyone.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
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On Jan 22, 2008, at 8:20 PM, <HollidayObrecht@copper.net> wrote:

Hi Bruce,

I sent this message out to the group, but it bounced back.  Could you 
forward it to the group?  Getting this engine started has been very 
frustrating, and I have lost 3 flying sessions so far.

Thanks for your help.

Holliday,

--- Begin forwarded message:

From: <HollidayObrecht@copper.net>
To: <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Engine Won't Start!
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:12:40 -0800

I have been having trouble starting my engine.  It had been getting 
harder and harder to start when cold.  It is a 912S engine with 284 
hours on it.  It cranks over fine, but just seems to fire on a 
cylinder or two, shakes and rattles, but will not catch.  If I crank 
for several 10 second bouts, fuel will begin to flow out the overflow 
lines on the carb(s).  Each carb. bowl has fuel up to 1/8" from the 
top (per spec.), and the floats in each carb. do not appear stuck.  I 
examined the plugs and they were dirty (100 LL).  I changed all 8, 
gapped to 0.028" (per spec.).  The engine started up and ran fine 
after that, but it was too late to fly.  So, thinking the problem was 
solved, I went to the airport yesterday to fly.  The engine would not 
start--exact same symptoms as before I changed the plugs! I just 
bucks and kicks and will not catch.  It is getting spark, fuel, and 
air.  But it has been cold outsid e.

Can anyone help me with suggestions?  I do not have the luxury of a 
mechanic experienced with Rotax engines.

Thanks for any help or suggestions you can pass my way.

Sincerely,
Holliday Obrecht
SN 130
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:47:39 +0000
Reply-To:     "Ximango Owners Group (XOG)" <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       "Ximango Owners Group (XOG)" <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Ted Gordon <tedjgordon@ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Engine Won't Start!

Dear Holiday:

I invested in an engine heater. When the temperature is below 35 degrees or so, I run it an hour before I try to start and it works very well. Also in the past Kerry has suggested to me that I reduce the plug gap to .022 for better cold starting.

Hope you can solve the problem.

Best
Ted

BTW: has anyone yet received the new parts for the FAA AD?



-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Bruce SCHIMMEL <bruce@SCHIMMEL.COM>
>
> On Jan 22, 2008, at 8:20 PM, <HollidayObrecht@copper.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Bruce,
>
> I sent this message out to the group, but it bounced back.  Could you 
> forward it to the group?  Getting this engine started has been very 
> frustrating, and I have lost 3 flying sessions so far.
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Holliday,
>
> --- Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: <HollidayObrecht@copper.net>
> To: <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
> Subject: Engine Won't Start!
> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:12:40 -0800
>
> I have been having trouble starting my engine.  It had been getting 
> harder and harder to start when cold.  It is a 912S engine with 284 
> hours on it.  It cranks over fine, but just seems to fire on a 
> cylinder or two, shakes and rattles, but will not catch.  If I crank 
> for several 10 second bouts, fuel will begin to flow out the overflow 
> lines on the carb(s).  Each carb. bowl has fuel up to 1/8" from the 
> top (per spec.), and the floats in each carb. do not appear stuck.  I 
> examined the plugs and they were dirty (100 LL).  I changed all 8, 
> gapped to 0.028" (per spec.).  The engine started up and ran fine 
> after that, but it was too late to fly.  So, thinking the problem was 
> solved, I went to the airport yesterday to fly.  The engine would not 
> start--exact same symptoms as before I changed the plugs! I just 
> bucks and kicks and will not catch.  It is getting spark, fuel, and 
> air.  But it has been cold outsid e.
>
> Can anyone help me with suggestions?  I do not have the luxury of a 
> mechanic experienced with Rotax engines.
>
> Thanks for any help or suggestions you can pass my way.
>
> Sincerely,
> Holliday Obrecht
> SN 130
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:55:38 -0700
Reply-To:     "Ximango Owners Group (XOG)" <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       "Ximango Owners Group (XOG)" <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Hermann F. Fasel" <faselh@EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Engine Won't Start!
Comments: To: Ted Gordon <tedjgordon@ATT.NET>
In-Reply-To:  <012320080147.27131.47969CBB000340E5000069FB22218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF02010B9D0109060B0A9B@att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed"
Content-Disposition: inline
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Ted
I have also had trouble to get the engine started when cold - so I am curious
how you solve your problem.

Hermann


Hermann F. Fasel
Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering
University of Arizona
Tucson, Arizona 85721

Tel.: 520-621-2771
Fax: 520-621-8191


Quoting Ted Gordon <tedjgordon@ATT.NET>:

> Dear Holiday:
>
> I invested in an engine heater. When the temperature is below 35
> degrees or so, I run it an hour before I try to start and it works
> very well. Also in the past Kerry has suggested to me that I reduce
> the plug gap to .022 for better cold starting.
>
> Hope you can solve the problem.
>
> Best
> Ted
>
> BTW: has anyone yet received the new parts for the FAA AD?
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: Bruce SCHIMMEL <bruce@SCHIMMEL.COM>
>>
>> On Jan 22, 2008, at 8:20 PM, <HollidayObrecht@copper.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Bruce,
>>
>> I sent this message out to the group, but it bounced back.  Could you
>> forward it to the group?  Getting this engine started has been very
>> frustrating, and I have lost 3 flying sessions so far.
>>
>> Thanks for your help.
>>
>> Holliday,
>>
>> --- Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> From: <HollidayObrecht@copper.net>
>> To: <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
>> Subject: Engine Won't Start!
>> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:12:40 -0800
>>
>> I have been having trouble starting my engine.  It had been getting
>> harder and harder to start when cold.  It is a 912S engine with 284
>> hours on it.  It cranks over fine, but just seems to fire on a
>> cylinder or two, shakes and rattles, but will not catch.  If I crank
>> for several 10 second bouts, fuel will begin to flow out the overflow
>> lines on the carb(s).  Each carb. bowl has fuel up to 1/8" from the
>> top (per spec.), and the floats in each carb. do not appear stuck.  I
>> examined the plugs and they were dirty (100 LL).  I changed all 8,
>> gapped to 0.028" (per spec.).  The engine started up and ran fine
>> after that, but it was too late to fly.  So, thinking the problem was
>> solved, I went to the airport yesterday to fly.  The engine would not
>> start--exact same symptoms as before I changed the plugs! I just
>> bucks and kicks and will not catch.  It is getting spark, fuel, and
>> air.  But it has been cold outsid e.
>>
>> Can anyone help me with suggestions?  I do not have the luxury of a
>> mechanic experienced with Rotax engines.
>>
>> Thanks for any help or suggestions you can pass my way.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Holliday Obrecht
>> SN 130
>>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:56:22 -0500
Reply-To:     "Ximango Owners Group (XOG)" <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       "Ximango Owners Group (XOG)" <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Bruce SCHIMMEL <bruce@SCHIMMEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Engine Won't Start!
In-Reply-To:  <012320080147.27131.47969CBB000340E5000069FB22218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF02010B9D0109060B0A9B@att.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Maybe you took on a load of bad avgas. Keeps fouling the plugs.  My 
guess.

To my knowledge  no one has received the parts, because the parts 
aren't available yet. Last date I heard was around 4 Feb.

B

On Jan 22, 2008, at 8:47 PM, Ted Gordon wrote:

Dear Holiday:

I invested in an engine heater. When the temperature is below 35 
degrees or so, I run it an hour before I try to start and it works 
very well. Also in the past Kerry has suggested to me that I reduce 
the plug gap to .022 for better cold starting.

Hope you can solve the problem.

Best
Ted

BTW: has anyone yet received the new parts for the FAA AD?



-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Bruce SCHIMMEL <bruce@SCHIMMEL.COM>
>
> On Jan 22, 2008, at 8:20 PM, <HollidayObrecht@copper.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Bruce,
>
> I sent this message out to the group, but it bounced back.  Could you
> forward it to the group?  Getting this engine started has been very
> frustrating, and I have lost 3 flying sessions so far.
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Holliday,
>
> --- Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: <HollidayObrecht@copper.net>
> To: <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
> Subject: Engine Won't Start!
> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:12:40 -0800
>
> I have been having trouble starting my engine.  It had been getting
> harder and harder to start when cold.  It is a 912S engine with 284
> hours on it.  It cranks over fine, but just seems to fire on a
> cylinder or two, shakes and rattles, but will not catch.  If I crank
> for several 10 second bouts, fuel will begin to flow out the overflow
> lines on the carb(s).  Each carb. bowl has fuel up to 1/8" from the
> top (per spec.), and the floats in each carb. do not appear stuck.  I
> examined the plugs and they were dirty (100 LL).  I changed all 8,
> gapped to 0.028" (per spec.).  The engine started up and ran fine
> after that, but it was too late to fly.  So, thinking the problem was
> solved, I went to the airport yesterday to fly.  The engine would not
> start--exact same symptoms as before I changed the plugs! I just
> bucks and kicks and will not catch.  It is getting spark, fuel, and
> air.  But it has been cold outsid e.
>
> Can anyone help me with suggestions?  I do not have the luxury of a
> mechanic experienced with Rotax engines.
>
> Thanks for any help or suggestions you can pass my way.
>
> Sincerely,
> Holliday Obrecht
> SN 130
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:44:07 EST
Reply-To:     "Ximango Owners Group (XOG)" <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       "Ximango Owners Group (XOG)" <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         John Lawton <Thrmlseekr@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Engine mount torque values and preheaters
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Greetings Team,
 
Off hand, does anybody know the torque values for the engine mount bolts? 
I'm talking about the DIN cap screw bolts that go through the rubber  mounts.
I've looked through all the documentation that came with my bird, but no  joy.
My engine is sagging a bit up front, causing a slight misalignment  (1/4" or
so) between the cowl and the spinner. I'm currently replacing the  exhaust wrap
and since I've got the cowls off I thought I'd replace the front  two rubber
bushings, since they seem to be the source of the sag.  Any info  anyone can
provide regarding the torque values of these bolts is  appreciated.
 
In regard to heaters, I agree. I've always preheated every airplane  engine
I've owned, Lycoming, Continental, Jabiru and now Rotax. It makes a  world of
difference on frosty mornings. Prior to the Ximango, I had a  Pawnee with an
O-540 and high compression pistons that we used to tow  gliders here at my
strip. That Pawnee was head and shoulders stronger than any  of the others I've
flown, but it simply would not start when it was  cold. Preheating did the trick.
It used both an E-Z Heat oil pan  heater and a Tannis block heater.  I don't
think either is available for  the 912S, though.
 
So, in lieu of that, I use a small, 125W heat pad on the oil  tank,
"temporarily" taped to the side of the tank with  aluminum tape, then routed the cord
out of the way of anything that would  be hot when the engine is running. The
pad is not stuck to the side of  the tank with it's own adhesive. I peeled the
adhesive cover on the pad  and mated aluminum tape to it, sticky side to
sticky side, then taped it to  the side of the oil reservoir using the aluminum
tape so that it would  not be permanent, but it would be reusable. I then routed
the cord of the 125W  pad and zip tied it's plug to the engine mount frame
down  near the cowl flap so that it is accessible from the cowl flap when open,
but  it does not interfere with the operation of the cowl flap.
 
Since there is no oil pan on the 912, I also use a 250W pad mounted to  a
piece of .025" aluminum plate which slides in-between the stainless heat  shield
above the muffler and below the engine block. This radiates heat up into  the
engine block and heats it up nicely. Once the engine is hot,  unplug both and
a gentle tug on the cord of the 250W pad removes it  through the cowl flap. I
set these on a timer to come on an hour and a half  to two hours before I want
to fly and, then throw an old sleeping bag over  the cowl. The engine and oil
heat up to about 130F and it starts  up like a warm summer day, even at 20F
outside temps.
 
No need to worry about over heating, as both pads are thermostatically 
controlled internally. Both of these heater pads are automotive in origin  and are
available for about $100 total from JC Whitney. Interestingly,  they are
identical to the STC'd pads sold for Lycoming and Continental through  E-Z Heat and
Aircraft Spruce, only less than half the price. Here's a link  to JC Whitney
and the pads I use:
 
_http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/tf-Browse/s-10101/Pr-p_Product.CAT
ENTRY_ID:2005253/p-2005253/N-111+10201+600001648/c-10101_
(http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/tf-Browse/s-10101/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2005253/p-2
005253/N-111+10201+600001648/c-10101)
 
 
Anyway, hope it helps!
 
Regards,
 
John  Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
Ximango #135
 
PS - If anybody is interested in seeing the Europa I built,  N245E, it's in
the February '08 edition of Kitplanes in the "Completions"  section.



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.    
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:38:03 -0600
Reply-To:     "Ximango Owners Group (XOG)" <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       "Ximango Owners Group (XOG)" <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Ted Gordon <tedjgordon@ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Engine Won't Start!
Comments: To: "Hermann F. Fasel" <faselh@email.arizona.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
              reply-type=response
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear All:

Here is the unit I am using.

http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?DID=19&Product_ID=10044

It draws outside air in from one side of the cowling, heats it gently, and
sends the heated air back into the other side of the cowling. Takes about an
hour and it works just fine- starts like on a summer day.

Best
Ted


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Hermann F. Fasel" <faselh@email.arizona.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:55 PM
To: "Ximango Owners Group (XOG)" <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>; "Ted Gordon"
<tedjgordon@ATT.NET>
Cc: <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Engine Won't Start!

> Ted
> I have also had trouble to get the engine started when cold - so I am
> curious
> how you solve your problem.
>
> Hermann
>
>
> Hermann F. Fasel
> Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering
> University of Arizona
> Tucson, Arizona 85721
>
> Tel.: 520-621-2771
> Fax: 520-621-8191
>
>
> Quoting Ted Gordon <tedjgordon@ATT.NET>:
>
>> Dear Holiday:
>>
>> I invested in an engine heater. When the temperature is below 35 degrees
>> or so, I run it an hour before I try to start and it works very well.
>> Also in the past Kerry has suggested to me that I reduce the plug gap to
>> .022 for better cold starting.
>>
>> Hope you can solve the problem.
>>
>> Best
>> Ted
>>
>> BTW: has anyone yet received the new parts for the FAA AD?
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------- Original message ----------------------
>> From: Bruce SCHIMMEL <bruce@SCHIMMEL.COM>
>>>
>>> On Jan 22, 2008, at 8:20 PM, <HollidayObrecht@copper.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Bruce,
>>>
>>> I sent this message out to the group, but it bounced back.  Could you
>>> forward it to the group?  Getting this engine started has been very
>>> frustrating, and I have lost 3 flying sessions so far.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your help.
>>>
>>> Holliday,
>>>
>>> --- Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>> From: <HollidayObrecht@copper.net>
>>> To: <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
>>> Subject: Engine Won't Start!
>>> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:12:40 -0800
>>>
>>> I have been having trouble starting my engine.  It had been getting
>>> harder and harder to start when cold.  It is a 912S engine with 284
>>> hours on it.  It cranks over fine, but just seems to fire on a
>>> cylinder or two, shakes and rattles, but will not catch.  If I crank
>>> for several 10 second bouts, fuel will begin to flow out the overflow
>>> lines on the carb(s).  Each carb. bowl has fuel up to 1/8" from the
>>> top (per spec.), and the floats in each carb. do not appear stuck.  I
>>> examined the plugs and they were dirty (100 LL).  I changed all 8,
>>> gapped to 0.028" (per spec.).  The engine started up and ran fine
>>> after that, but it was too late to fly.  So, thinking the problem was
>>> solved, I went to the airport yesterday to fly.  The engine would not
>>> start--exact same symptoms as before I changed the plugs! I just
>>> bucks and kicks and will not catch.  It is getting spark, fuel, and
>>> air.  But it has been cold outsid e.
>>>
>>> Can anyone help me with suggestions?  I do not have the luxury of a
>>> mechanic experienced with Rotax engines.
>>>
>>> Thanks for any help or suggestions you can pass my way.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Holliday Obrecht
>>> SN 130
>>>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:00:41 -0600
Reply-To:     "Ximango Owners Group (XOG)" <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       "Ximango Owners Group (XOG)" <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Horst Stratmann <Horst.stratmann@UPCGROUP.COM>
Subject:      Re: Engine Won't Start!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have the 912A, 81 hp, engine and had a similar problem, even with =
warmer temperature. Kenny from Lockwood recommended to clean he idle jet =
in the carburetor and it solved the problem.



Best regards
=A0
Horst Stratmann
UPC Interpipe, Inc.
Tel:=A0 512 266 0132
Fax: 512 266 0133
N 96SX


-----Original Message-----
From: Ximango Owners Group (XOG) [mailto:XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On =
Behalf Of Bruce SCHIMMEL
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:35 PM
To: XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: Engine Won't Start!

On Jan 22, 2008, at 8:20 PM, <HollidayObrecht@copper.net> wrote:

Hi Bruce,

I sent this message out to the group, but it bounced back.  Could you =20
forward it to the group?  Getting this engine started has been very =20
frustrating, and I have lost 3 flying sessions so far.

Thanks for your help.

Holliday,

--- Begin forwarded message:

From: <HollidayObrecht@copper.net>
To: <XIMANGO@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Engine Won't Start!
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:12:40 -0800

I have been having trouble starting my engine.  It had been getting =20
harder and harder to start when cold.  It is a 912S engine with 284 =20
hours on it.  It cranks over fine, but just seems to fire on a =20
cylinder or two, shakes and rattles, but will not catch.  If I crank =20
for several 10 second bouts, fuel will begin to flow out the overflow =20
lines on the carb(s).  Each carb. bowl has fuel up to 1/8" from the =20
top (per spec.), and the floats in each carb. do not appear stuck.  I =20
examined the plugs and they were dirty (100 LL).  I changed all 8, =20
gapped to 0.028" (per spec.).  The engine started up and ran fine =20
after that, but it was too late to fly.  So, thinking the problem was =20
solved, I went to the airport yesterday to fly.  The engine would not =20
start--exact same symptoms as before I changed the plugs! I just =20
bucks and kicks and will not catch.  It is getting spark, fuel, and =20
air.  But it has been cold outsid e.

Can anyone help me with suggestions?  I do not have the luxury of a =20
mechanic experienced with Rotax engines.

Thanks for any help or suggestions you can pass my way.

Sincerely,
Holliday Obrecht
SN 130